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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. 28bytes (talk) 07:37, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yat Siu

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Yat Siu (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Some people like this article, some don't, and there's been some back-and-forth about that in other venues. Here's the place to discuss whether the article should be kept, deleted, converted to a redirect to Animoca Brands, merged into that article, or what. Herostratus (talk) 09:49, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Neuetral as nominator. I don't know what's going on here, just that some editors feel strongly about the article and have been arguing about it at other places, whereas the better place is here. Deletions should not be done via blankings-to-redirect and insisting. Herostratus (talk) 09:53, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I had not restored the article myself as I did not want to edit war The page history, [1] and [2], suggests otherwise. --John B123 (talk) 15:42, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.

    Why I oppose a redirect to Animoca Brands

    I oppose a redirect to Animoca Brands because Yat Siu has received significant coverage in reliable sources for his founding of Outblaze in 1998 and Animoca Brands in 2014. He also received coverage for his founding of Cybercity and his founding of Dalton Learning Lab. Yat Siu has received significant coverage in multiple publications over a period of 22 years between 1999 and 2021. There is more than enough information to justify a standalone article about him. A redirect to Animoca Brands does not make sense when he is covered for his numerous activities. I removed promotional material when I restored the article, which now has a neutral tone.

    Sources

    1. Selection of three sources:
      1. Cohan, Peter (2013-01-19). "WPI dropout finds success in Hong Kong". Telegram & Gazette. Archived from the original on 2022-01-05. Retrieved 2022-01-05.
      2. Feng, Cathy Hilborn (1999-10-14). "Free net for all". Far Eastern Economic Review. Vol. 162, no. 41. p. 61. ProQuest 208226626.
      3. Ong, Carolyn (1999-10-15). "Young, eager to succeed, they're from outside HK; Time overseas marks out young Web entrepreneurs". South China Morning Post. Archived from the original on 2022-01-05. Retrieved 2022-01-05.
    2. Additional sources:
      1. Ye, Josh (2021-06-12). "Animoca Brands: How a big bet on blockchain and NFTs minted Hong Kong's latest unicorn". South China Morning Post. Archived from the original on 2021-12-05. Retrieved 2021-12-05.
      2. Whyte, Jemima (2021-11-26). "If you haven't heard of this $2.2b crypto co-founder you soon will". Australian Financial Review. Archived from the original on 2021-12-30. Retrieved 2021-12-30.
      3. "Yat Siu". Tatler. 2021. Archived from the original on 2022-01-05. Retrieved 2022-01-05.
      4. Davis, Chris (2012-10-06). "Cyber success - Passion, ambition, drive and luck helped propel Hong Kong technology pioneer Yat Siu to the top, writes Chris Davis". South China Morning Post. Archived from the original on 2022-01-05. Retrieved 2022-01-05.
      5. Knott, Kylie (2017-10-10). "Hong Kong tech guru's after-school lab to help children prepare for a robotic future. Yat Siu fears Hong Kong's traditional school system is failing to equip students for a world dominated by technology". South China Morning Post. Archived from the original on 2022-01-05. Retrieved 2022-01-05.
      6. Tay, Daniel (2015-05-06). "Outblaze's CEO: here's what it takes to become a builder of meaningful products". Tech in Asia. Archived from the original on 2022-01-05. Retrieved 2022-01-05.
      7. Mertens, Brian (July 2000). "Asia's boomerangs". Asian Business. Vol. 36, no. 7. Times Publishing Corp (HK) Ltd. ProQuest 199832036.
      8. Scott, Jason (2001-05-27). "Time tight for Outblaze chief; Despite a couple of false starts, hard work has quickly established wunderkind as a local Internet heavyweight". South China Morning Post. Archived from the original on 2022-01-05. Retrieved 2022-01-05.
      9. Einhorn, Bruce (2002-08-19). "How Outblaze Outlasted the Bubble". Business Week Online. EBSCOhost 7232255.
      10. Kolle, Klaudine (January 2001). "Blazing ahead". Asian Business. Vol. 37, no. 1. Times Publishing Corp (HK) Ltd. ProQuest 199839074.
    Sources with quotes
    1. Selection of three sources:
      1. Cohan, Peter (2013-01-19). "WPI dropout finds success in Hong Kong". Telegram & Gazette. Archived from the original on 2022-01-05. Retrieved 2022-01-05.

        The article notes: "Yat Siu is an only child, born in Vienna. And his journey from there to Hong Kong helps explain the success of his company, Outblaze. ... In high school, Mr. Siu wrote software for Atari ST computers. This attracted the attention of Atari, which hired Mr. Siu after he graduated from high school and brought him to the U.S. to work on multimedia software. At the same time, Mr. Siu attended Worcester Polytechnic Institute to study computer science, but after a visit to Boston he found that city more fun and more stimulating. He soon transferred to Boston University."

      2. Feng, Cathy Hilborn (1999-10-14). "Free net for all". Far Eastern Economic Review. Vol. 162, no. 41. p. 61. ProQuest 208226626.

        The article notes: "The son of Chinese musicians, Siu grew up in Austria and himself became a classically trained musician. At age 16, he went from composing music on computers to working for Atari's multimedia team. Soon after, while studying computer science in Boston, he co-founded a software company that Silicon Graphics purchased for an undisclosed amount in 1994."

      3. Ong, Carolyn (1999-10-15). "Young, eager to succeed, they're from outside HK; Time overseas marks out young Web entrepreneurs". South China Morning Post. Archived from the original on 2022-01-05. Retrieved 2022-01-05.

        The article notes: "Mr Yat's story is also remarkable. Mr Yat studied music theory and the flute at the Austrian Musical Conservatory and had nothing to do with technology until his first job at the age of 16, at Atari, which marked his first foray into software development. Fast forward to 1994, Mr Yat has formed Lexicor, a software company that builds 3D graphics. Silicon Graphics bought Lexicor and Mr Yat came to Hong Kong. The entrepreneurial itch was bugging him yet again and he started Hong Kong Cyber City, a Web community along the lines of Geocities."

    2. Additional sources:
      1. Ye, Josh (2021-06-12). "Animoca Brands: How a big bet on blockchain and NFTs minted Hong Kong's latest unicorn". South China Morning Post. Archived from the original on 2021-12-05. Retrieved 2021-12-05.

        The article notes: "Born and raised in Vienna to a musical family from Hong Kong and Taiwan, Siu was a programming whiz who got his first job at the iconic gaming company Atari in Austria when he was still a teenager at school. Siu moved to Hong Kong in the 1990s from Boston, where he was attending university, and ended up creating one of Hong Kong’s most successful tech companies – Outblaze – which at one point claimed to power 30 to 40 per cent of US email traffic, providing the end-user services and back end infrastructure that allowed companies to offer their own branded communication services. After selling Outblaze’s messaging business unit to IBM in 2009, Siu went back into gaming and founded Animoca, which became a leading global mobile game developer."

      2. Whyte, Jemima (2021-11-26). "If you haven't heard of this $2.2b crypto co-founder you soon will". Australian Financial Review. Archived from the original on 2021-12-30. Retrieved 2021-12-30.

        The article notes: "If you haven’t yet heard of Yat Siu, you probably soon will. As co-founder and executive chairman of Animoca Brands, the 48-year-old Viennese-raised and now Hong Kong-based entrepreneur is right at the heart of the fast-paced world of online gaming, blockchain, crypto-currencies and non-fungible tokens."

      3. "Yat Siu". Tatler. 2021. Archived from the original on 2022-01-05. Retrieved 2022-01-05.

        The article notes: "Born in Austria, he started his career at Atari Germany before moving to Hong Kong in 1996, where he set up the innovative free website and email company Cybercity. He then set up Outblaze during the first dotcom explosion, initially as a messaging company known for its robust anti-spam protection (at its peak, it had more than 75 million customers), but he gradually transitioned it into a games company, selling its messaging business to IBM in 2009."

      4. Davis, Chris (2012-10-06). "Cyber success - Passion, ambition, drive and luck helped propel Hong Kong technology pioneer Yat Siu to the top, writes Chris Davis". South China Morning Post. Archived from the original on 2022-01-05. Retrieved 2022-01-05.

        The article notes: "Armed with a degree in music from the Conservatory of Music in Vienna, Siu began his career in technology working for Atari Germany. He later joined graphics software company Lexicor in Boston, serving as director and head of US east coast operations. He moved to Hong Kong in 1996, setting up Hong Kong Cybercity, later renamed Freenation, Asia's first free web page and e-mail provider."

      5. Knott, Kylie (2017-10-10). "Hong Kong tech guru's after-school lab to help children prepare for a robotic future. Yat Siu fears Hong Kong's traditional school system is failing to equip students for a world dominated by technology". South China Morning Post. Archived from the original on 2022-01-05. Retrieved 2022-01-05.

        The article notes: "But technology entrepreneur and father of three Yat Siu found himself worrying that the Hong Kong school system, which focuses on book learning and standardised testing, was not providing the skills necessary for the economy of tomorrow. ... So Siu did something about it. He co-founded Dalton Learning Lab, Hong Kong’s first after-school facility dedicated to preparing students aged four to 13 for a world dominated by technology."

      6. Tay, Daniel (2015-05-06). "Outblaze's CEO: here's what it takes to become a builder of meaningful products". Tech in Asia. Archived from the original on 2022-01-05. Retrieved 2022-01-05.

        The article discusses Yat Siu's appearance at Tech in Asia Singapore 2015. The article notes: "Yat Siu first become a serial entrepreneur, or a builder of meaningful things, back in 1998. Outblaze was founded then, and somehow rose out of the ashes of the dot-com bubble and subsequent crash. Because he was unable to secure venture capital, Yat Siu was forced to build his platform on Linux, which gave him an advantage in terms of cost when the crisis hit."

      7. Mertens, Brian (July 2000). "Asia's boomerangs". Asian Business. Vol. 36, no. 7. Times Publishing Corp (HK) Ltd. ProQuest 199832036.

        The article notes: "Take "superboy" Yat Siu, CEO of Hong Kong-based portal services and solutions business, Outblaze. It may have taken a couple of generations, but the 27-year-old entrepreneur finally returned to his roots. Austrian-born, US-educated Siu's great-grandfather fled Shanghai, for Hong Kong when the Chinese Communists came to power in 1949. He later left for Taiwan. Fifty years on, Siu has returned to the same part of the world, Hong Kong. ..."

      8. Scott, Jason (2001-05-27). "Time tight for Outblaze chief; Despite a couple of false starts, hard work has quickly established wunderkind as a local Internet heavyweight". South China Morning Post. Archived from the original on 2022-01-05. Retrieved 2022-01-05.

        The article notes: "Born in Vienna, his Taiwanese mother was an orchestra conductor, while his Hong Kong-born father was an instrumentalist who later became a businessman. Mr Siu followed his parents into music (specialising in piano, flute and cello) but implies he was pushed."

      9. Einhorn, Bruce (2002-08-19). "How Outblaze Outlasted the Bubble". Business Week Online. EBSCOhost 7232255.

        The article notes: "A classically trained musician who studied at a Vienna conservatory before switching to computer software, Siu even became a poster boy for Citibank, which plastered giant pictures of him around town as part of an ad campaign designed to capitalize on his membership in Hong Kong's hip cyber elite."

      10. Kolle, Klaudine (January 2001). "Blazing ahead". Asian Business. Vol. 37, no. 1. Times Publishing Corp (HK) Ltd. ProQuest 199839074.

        The article profiles Yat Siu. The article notes: "After being burnt in his first foray into the tech world, young gun Yat Siu didn't let his passion die -- instead he ignited one of Asia's hottest web service providers."

    There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Yat Siu to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

    Cunard (talk) 11:49, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You're doing the massive slab of text with quotes thing again. For a while, you were at least collapsing the quotes. 2-3 screens of text just comes across as an attempt at filibustering - David Gerard (talk) 16:35, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's not filibustering to make cogent, detailed arguments supported by examples, excerpts, and considered analysis. If you're not up to reading and considering editors' arguments and argue your points on the merits, fine, but then how is contributing here helpful to what we're trying to do? And it's not a "thing again" for this venue. We're starting fresh here with some new eyes. Can we please stick mostly to the merits of the case. Herostratus (talk) 20:30, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would have thought WP:THREE was applicable here? --John B123 (talk) 21:10, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I provided WP:THREE in the "Selection of three sources" list to establish that the subject passes Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline. I included 10 additional sources to address Wikipedia:Notability#Whether to create standalone pages by definitively establishing that the subject is notable independent of Animoca Brands so should have a standalone article.

I don't like to collapse the sources with quotes as that makes the quotes less visible. The quotes explain why I think the subject is notable. Although I generally don't collapse sources with quotes anymore as I agree with Herostratus (talk · contribs) that this is not filibustering, I have done this now so that editors can comment on the quality of the sources instead of the length of the post. Cunard (talk) 11:45, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Question, is Wikipedia:Conflict of interest in play here? I haven't seen that claim, but ask because people seem to be feeling really quite strongly that the article is not legit. If it's a possibility, should not a Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard thread be opened? This could have a strong influence on how we dispose of the article. Herostratus (talk) 20:43, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • As there have been no claims of COI, and as far as I can see you're not making one, this seems like mudslinging to me. I don't follow the logic. Two editors are trying desperately hard to save the article, three have reverted the changes, but the three who have made the reverts have had their integrity questioned. All that a side, as the article has already been discussed in multiple places, starting another discussion would come across as WP:FORUMSHOPPING. --John B123 (talk) 21:23, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, fair point, but I'm just trying to figure out what the deal is here, and it looks kind of sus. Looking at the page history I get:
        • Page created November 2018, basically sailing along until December of last year, when
        • 2021, December 1, User:IceWelder blanked the page (not a huge fan of people doing this, but legal) and left a redirect.
        • December 3, restored by an anon. Special-purpose anon.
        • December 3, IceWelder doubled down and blanked the page again. Proper procedure per WP:BRD is to not do that but rather go to the talk page and seek consensus, so this is edit warring.
        • December 3, restored again by same anon (User:218.250.109.65). It's arguable that this is edit warring and proper procedure would be to go to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. But they didn't.
        • December 3, IceWelder tripled down and blanked again. Now we have a real edit war.
        • December 4, same anon restored again.
        • December 12, User:David Gerard (an admin) steps in and blanks the page again (edit summary was "Rv promotional IP", which is why I asked about conflict of interest).
        • December 20, a different anon restored the page again. Her eighth edit and last so far. Started in 2020, so could be sleeper?
        • December 20, David Gerard blanked the page again
        • December 23, another new anon (the third now) restored the page. Also her eighth edit and last so far. Started in 2017... sleeper?
        • December 23, David Gerard blanked the page
        • Christmas Day, another new anon (the fourth) restored the page again. Her first and only edit.
        • December 28, User:John B123 steps and blanks the page
        • December 30, User:Cunard steps and restores the page
        • 2022 January 2, David Gerard blanks the page
        • January 2, restored by Cunard
        • January 2, blanked by David Gerard
        • January 2, User:Herostratus (that is me) restored the page, sent it to AfD, and asked that the page remain as is so that AfD can properly discuss it, which request has been honored.
      • That's where we are. This is like a really long edit war, and the whole thing is odd and possibly everyone involved (except me!) should take a cooldown block or something. But I mean User:IceWelder definitely started it. Generally, the people who want the page to not exist or be blank are the main culprits here (and I'm afraid that you, User:John B123, are in with them, FWIW. The anons and Cunard where just wanting to get them to honor WP:BRD, basically. The admins at the Edit Warring board would not have been kindly I don't think.
The fact that various single-purpose IPs were stepping in... is that suspicious? Sounds sound extremely suspicious to me. Maybe David Gerard figured it was a phalanx of COI trolls, and that's why he did what he did. Edit warring doesn't seem the best to handle that tho. Perhaps this AfD, where it's legit and important if Chinese trolls are supporting this article. Nobody's really said that, that I've seen, tho. Or maybe to the COI board, then here when that's concluded?
Oh and Cunard took this to two different board -- WP:DRV where there was a long and well-attended discussion (lot of people saying go to AfD, some not), and another board, I forget which. Quite a dog's breakfast. Whole thing is odd. Now on to the merits, I guess, unless the plethora of anons or whatever want someone to claim trollery, which would matter, but nobody has really said that yet. Herostratus (talk) 04:03, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for doing this detailed timeline and analysis, Herostratus (talk · contribs). I restored Yat Siu as an article after Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Animoca Brands was closed as "keep" and after I noticed this edit to Animoca Brands that removed a link to founder Yat Siu as a "circular redirect". Cunard (talk) 11:45, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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